BobDylan

I agree with anyone who says that shaming will still work a lot of the time, even these days, but only on ordinary people who do not possess great wealth or power. But those who have one or both of those things, are now immune from feeling shame or really suffering much from being publicly shamed. I did some thinking about our present dilemma, and one other strategy did come to mind, related to this. And that would be large, ongoing public protests directly outside the homes of the shameless public officials and pols, putting the heat on them and their neighbors for their corrupt policies and actions. But that tactic is much more risky than targeted boycotts, because most of them will have security details, either privately hired, or publicly funded, as well as usually having the local cops on their side. So the protestors risk being arrested, jailed, or even shot for their involvement. And unlike the civil rights and anti war movement during Vietnam, the courts are much more right wing and supportive of cracking down on protestors, unless they are right wing protestors. So the only hope with that tactic, would be supplying lawyers, free of charge, for any protestor arrested, and then going for jury nullification after seeking a jury trial for each protestor. Lots of risk all around for the protest movement...

Like they said back in the Watergate scandal era, and still just as always true, "Always follow the money.".......

The Repub Party these days, not just THE LYIN' KING, are utterly shameless, and they also usually suffer no consequences for their behavior, so of course as long as that continues, the general public will also mostly choose to go in that same direction, as far as behavior. The same applies to the ultra rich and corporations, also shameless, and rarely suffering consequences for their behavior and actions. More shaming and more equal justice and fair equal treatment under the law, is the only way any of this changes. Even elections will not change the behavior of the Repubs in politics, I fear, as they have decided they can always just cheat their way to winning elections, no matter what the voters want, if elections are even held in the future... My fear of either civil war or permanent dictatorship, without any real future elections, gets worse every day... It's starting to look like civil war may be our only way out of this, but I know our side is never going to agree to wage one against the right wingers.. The other way to overthrow them is general strikes, but those also are never going to happen, because too many working age Americans have their healthcare tied to their jobs, and are living paycheck to paycheck, so boycotts against the worst corporations are probably our best bet for fighting back against our corrupt govt.. Attack their financial backers, and put the pressure on them that way...

Yeah, it's now official and indisputeable, our national govt. is now a rogue nation.... Untrustworthy and hated by most of the world. THE LYIN' KING has now gotten his wish, to be our version of Putin, his idol..

I respect your stand of favoring animals over humans in the Darwinian scheme of things. I don't bet or gamble on things, but if I did, my money too, would be on the animal over the human, in any bare knuckles brawl...

As for prioritizing life forms, I always root for the higher life form in the process of evolution, thus favoring cockroaches over homo sapiens of the THE LYIN' KING and Stephen Miller variety...

No thanks, mac, I'll pass on the boiling water, lol... I've already engaged in enough masochism so far in the dating game, that I don't need to add the boiling water...

Trust me, scary, you will love retirement, not only with the free time it will bring, but more greatly the freedom to say exactly what you think, for the most part with most people. If you're financially secure and comfortable, all you need to enjoy it is your health, a decent social circle, and several interests, which for people like us is easy, as we are already fairly independent and intellectually curious, so we naturally find ways to fill our time after retiring, even if we have to do it mostly without companionship. That last thing is really the only thing I'm lacking in my life, so it follows that my interest in the dating game is more serious than most women my age, who are already mostly fulfilled emotionally and socially with their adult kids and grandkids, neither of which I have.. If being vegan is a line in the sand for being partnered, I can and will respect that in the dating game, tho I've rarely run across it in my local dating pool, living in Iowa which is a farming state with almost everybody being a carnivore and lots of meatpacking plants and livestock operations, etc.. But if it isn't a line in the sand for a woman, I'm fine with compromising and each of us providing and eating whatever we want. Obviously that wouldn't work with a female version of mac, lol... But I do have my own lines in the sand on politics and religion, regarding dating, as I won't waste my time or a woman's, with dating a Libertarian, conservative, or Trumper. Same with someone whose religion and beliefs are fundamentalist, conservative, or very strongly religious, as it just wouldn't work.. And I do feel your pain about co-workers, as my last job before retirement, was chock full of co workers that were conservative Christians and Repubs... They also were very bigoted towards queer folk and not very smart or educated. It was a lot of tongue biting on my part..

Fair enough, I appreciate your honesty. I doubt we will ever meet in person, much less ever dine together. But I hope you'll still respect and like me as a person, regardless of my eating habits, as I am way more moral and ethical than most people, in every other way. You can't have everything in everybody, lol.. But your reaction here may explain why diet is a dealbreaker for some liberal women with me, after the issue comes up, even if we were compatible in every other way. Something for me to be aware of, in the dating game, even tho my profile says nothing about that issue and I seldom see it in any women's dating profiles. Maybe it's something that should be included in all dating profiles, same as religion and politics.. Same as I can't stand hearing country music and would never be comfortable dating someone who was a daily cig smoker... We all have our standards and preferences, the only thing that matters, is that we be honest and open about them with people we encounter in the dating game, and it's also healthy that said standards and preferences be realistic for what we ourselves bring to the table, or have to offer a partner. Otherwise, we are just bringing grief to ourselves and others in the dating game.. I too am retired, and am also rather choosy about who I keep company with. In fact, there are probably only a handful of people at my local senior center that I ever choose to sit with and talk with, since all the rest of them have nothing really in common with me, besides being 60 or older, living in my town and coming to that center to eat. Like you, I'm too old to put up with bull💩 or volunteer for conflict and irritation by engaging with people that are on another planet, for all practical purposes, in education level, intelligence, politics, culture, and religious beliefs. So if nobody that I already know and like is available to sit with, I gladly sit alone there. Better than the flack and friction of engaging with strangers who may as well be from a foreign country speaking another language.. Hopefully, you'll still see me as someone better and different than those first three groups of deplorables that you mentioned.,. Probably 90% of the population of my state, Iowa, are carnivores, yet a good 40% of them vote for Dems and are not members of your three groups of deplorables, so categorizing them that way for one practice seems a bit reductive and overly simplistic..

I am a carnivore, but I too try to just go with the flow and let others eat what they want. All I ask or need is a compromise where we go out to eat somewhere that has one thing on the menu I want and like. As for eating at home, I don't expect anyone to cook for me, and I don't cook, so we can each eat what we like, even if I have to bring my own food. It doesn't have to be a conflict or difference like smokers and non smokers, where that is something that does affect the other person's health, if the smoker smokes in the same room as them. And for me, dating a daily smoker is a dealbreaker in dating, as I don't enjoy kissing someone who's mouth smells like an ashtray, lol.. Altho I've heard from singer Natalie Merchant, a musician and vegetarian, that she said kissing a meat eater felt equally gross to her. So I guess for some, eating and smoking habits can be equal dealbreakers in dating, depending on how extreme either person is in their preferences..

As for social networks and social media, and having to watch what you say to not make others uncomfortable, I'm already seeing some posters on Substack, who are no longer going to be posting articles or essays, at least not under their own name, out of fear that they will be targeted by the feds, FBI, DOJ, or DHS, for being critical or dissenting from the THE LYIN' KING MAGA party line. To me, that is a very chilling sign, same as the likelihood that FB has or will be banning anyone who is too critical of THE LYIN' KING and the Repubs. So posting and commenting on the net may become very risky or costly. The whole thing of people starting to go underground or anonymous in their online comments regarding THE LYIN' KING and MAGA, seems way too much like the bad part of the 1960s, when many young people started to go underground to avoid detection and persecution from the feds, over their involvement in radical anti war or civil rights groups. They even became an organized group, The Weather Underground.... Like then, we need to be aware and vigilant about the same infiltration methods being used by the feds to undermine and go after members of our side. But this time, their survelliance methods are far more advanced and insidious..

I can only speak for myself, V., but on my FB page, where I share with my friends, as well as when I communicate with my siblings, who are my only family still left, I say whatever I want to, and if it makes any of them uncomfortable, too bad... They've long ago gotten used to it from me, lol....

Great comments, mac, and thanks for the two references you provided, the link to the article and the study you cited. Not surprised that the only messaging that might work on conservative leaning subjects, were health benefits and taste of plant-based meat products, and even then, I bet the taste would still be a hard sell to lifelong conservative meat eaters. My only experience with something like that, personally, is my quitting drinking alcohol in 1995, and never really missing it, so it wasn't hard to give up. And I still feel that by the middle 2000s, the beer companies came up with non alcohol beers that actually tasted pretty good. Nowadays, there are a lot of those NA beers on the market, and almost all of them taste just as good as their regular alcohol beers of the same brand. One example of capitalism actually doing a good job of recognizing a new market and doing the right thing to meet and accommodate it. But meat is going to be a much harder challenge, due to how politicized it is, and how, as you said, classism is already strongly linked to the anti meat movement.. Compared to how politicized mask wearing, vaccines, and social distancing were, during Covid, this is a matter that is more like many times more conflictual.. As for using AI, I'm a lifelong Luddite and curmadgeon, so like a lot of tech stuff, I don't trust it and resist it as much as I can, so I won't be guilty of that sin, as I don't even own a smartphone.. As for the pic of the woman's ass, you are a fellow heretic from PC, but I do draw the line of making fun of the appearance of strangers or random people, since I am far from great looking, and would rather we all be judged on our character, actions, and ideas than on our looks. But it's still fun to make fun of THE LYIN' KING's looks, and even those of MAGA, as far as I'm concerned, since for the time being, it's punching up, instead of down, since they have all the power for now..

Well V., one thing's for sure, you win the prize for being the most idealistic of all of us here. I hope your aims come true in the future. Happy NY....

Thanks for the backing. I feel your pain about the obnoxious hiking group member, tho I've been guilty of that sometimes myself, letting my passion for an issue overcome my interest in reading the room and letting others enjoy their wish to attend to something more appealing to them. As for people who relish in getting on your case and personally judging and attacking you for simply not living up to their own ridiculously strict standards for how everyone should live or behave, my personal pet peeve is the PC speech code warriors I encounter at times, who obviously only care about their PC speech codes, rather than economic justice or any other progressive policies. Those people love to swoop in and bash anyone they catch saying anything politically incorrect, because it makes them feel morally superior, to the point where it no longer matters if the speaker is saying the obvious truth, because their speech doesn't fit strict PC code, so they feel free to disregard any truth or honesty to the point or content shared by the politically incorrect speaker. Call me crazy, but the truth should still count for something, rather than PC speech codes being the sole substitute or virtue in place of it. It feels annoying and alienating, when they care more about their speech codes, than about the motives or intent of the speaker who accidentally violates their speech codes.. As for your lifestyle, it sounds to me like you are doing the best anyone could for your means, same as most of us, in living an honest and humane life, so you deserve for people to get off your back..

I get that. but right now we are fighting a present battle against fascism, that if lost, will end any chance at ever dealing with climate change in the future. Time is about running out on both of those fronts, I get that... And to win either of those wars, we will need class solidarity, of the 99% against the 1%...

I am a lifelong carnivore, tho in my older age I purposely eat a lot less red meat, and a lot more fish than I used to eat. I see the issue of vegans and vegetarians trying to change carnivores as something that is very unlikely to work, on any great or near term scale, so while I applaud their personal changes and choices, that have improved their own health and lessened their environmental footprint and helped them feel increased integrity and moral pureness, this needs to be more of a back burner issue in the political and culture wars these days. Because it's really going to alienate the working class and poor Americans who we need as allies. I see this as having or becoming the same sort of wedge issue as abortion has long been, only in this case, lower class Americans are likely to see it as higher educated, more privileged members of the elite telling them how to live their personal lives, in this case, telling them what is acceptable to eat or not. And one thing I've learned is that most Americans hate people who see them as their betters, telling them what to do. Every time, they only end up feeling resentful and wanting to lash back at those members of the supposed better class. Which is a big part of why we got THE LYIN' KING. So I advise against adding fuel to the fire of the class war, as far as alienating those who are or should be our class allies, in the war against the rich and corporations, who are everyone's real enemies in it. I know some lefties will see this as selfish on my part, but I think it's simply being pragmatic..

True, THE LYIN' KING is making the country so hostile to the rest of the world, esp. countries that are not white majority, that I'm amazed anyone would want to visit here. He's really going to screw things up for the World Cup next year, since most of the countries competing are not majority white. It's all going to 🍆>🐱 up the economy here, but he'll never admit that he caused it...

As for the women on this site that didn't speak up about your point regarding women who support the patriarchy, right on with that one as well. It's been frustrating for me to see, even on left leaning sites like reddit, that that there appear to be a lot of women in America that, despite all the advances in feminism during our lifetimes, seem to only practice a rather self-serving and selective form of feminism, where they only apply it to advancing their own personal agendas or self advantage, as well as reflexively siding with their gender in any online discussions of gender politics or the dating game, while choosing not to take any public stands on behalf of other women in general, esp. if it might cost them anything, including flack from men or other women with online forums. I agree, very disappointing to see... I've heard some interesting theories on that, such as that since women are an oppressed minority in America, even these days, many women choose to feel that qualifies the whole gender for a pass on ever being criticized in general, for general or common behavior, in the dating game or gender politics, as well as even criticism about specific women who behave badly, in the dating game or in public life. And that too frustrates me, as it seems to be dishonest and unfair. We are all individuals, yes, but we also all have our individual truths, based on our own experiences, which deserve as much consideration, respect, and right to be believed as honest, true and valid, as anyone else's, when there is no evidence to the contrary for that individual. So to dismiss the truth of a man stating his criticisms of general or common behavior, as well as bad individual behavior of the opposite sex, just because he belongs to the higher status gender, is unfair and dishonest, and contributes nothing to truth or better relations between the genders. No member of any group, should be invalidated or told to shut up and not critique anything, just because of their group membership, as that is unfair and unconstructive, when it comes to seeking the truth and improving society.. unless of course, they're a Trumper or a Nazi, lol...

As usual, mac, you nail a lot of things, and quite eloquently, besides much more concisely than me. I too, would welcome a Gender Politics and even a forum on the dating game itself, even tho I'm well aware that you've resigned from said game. It might be useful for the few dozen members here who have already completed dating profiles for the LHC, and also give them a way, outside of reddit, or even FB, to dialogue with each other, ideally providing encouragement, moral support, and advice on how to navigate the dating game these days, both in red and blue states. At the same time, I know and realize from experience with other online forums, that such forums as dating and gender politics, can become very explosive and conflictual, so in the end that would be V.'s call, as to whether he would want to end up moderating it or take the risk of having those discussions on this site. But I would also hope and like to think, that maybe on a site like this, where by definition the members would seem to value fairness, honesty, and respect much more than the other half of America that is red and loyal only to THE LYIN' KING and the right wing view of things, where empathy is weak and stupid and lying is shameless and justified at all times, we might be able to actually do better than the way I've seen men and women treat each other in those forums of the two topics, on other sites. Because even on reddit, which does lean left, it always seemed like most people, both men and women, cared more about being right and siding with their own gender, than actually trying to learn something and seek truth over some temporary emotional win over the other gender, etc.. Agree with you on the 50% stat of American men with toxic masculinity, they tend to get more notice and publicity..

I agree V., most men do deserve the criticism and blame, altho I honestly think I don't deserve it as much, and I have the longtime record of female, platonic friends, to back it up, since they all seemed to think I was about as pro feminist and had way less toxic masculinity than other men. I agree that a separate thread for this might be useful..

Yeah, sounds like the daily dose of depressing news. We really do seem to be 🍆>🐱ed, as far as turning things around. The Dems and corporate media are clearly not going to help us.. Pelosi, Schumer and Jeffries all need to be so gone and replaced with leaders who actually care and want to fight the Repubs..

I watched the video of Galloway on the Daily Show. It was very interesting and impressive, lots to agree with. As far as the radio show about misogyny, I agree with you, any panel that unbalanced gender wise is not going to be that honest or fair about such an issue. The evidence of that is obvious anytime you see a discussion of gender issues on the internet, on social discussion sites like reddit, for example, where you see so much brigading and hardened attitudes against the other gender whenever one gender outnumbers the other in a discussion. People become overly emboldened and overconfident about their rightness compared to the other gender, as soon as they feel they've got the superior numbers supporting them in the discussion, instead of practicing humility and empathy towards the other gender.. The audio podcast of the radio show was too long, almost an hour so I listened to the first several minutes of it, but stopped after that, since it wasn't really saying anything new I hadn't heard or read before online. For example, one point was made by a female panelist, that it was up to men to stand up to other men about misogynist behavior or speech. Well, I'd seen that one a lot of times on internet forum discussions, and it doesn't really have much practical application, as in my experience and that of other men who are pro feminist, the sort of men who need to be confronted, simply self select and either avoid socializing with men like me, who they know would call them on their 💩, or they simply self censor when around us and hide who they really are and what they think. So it's just one of many ideas that sound good in theory and feel satisfying to propose as a solution, but doesn't really hold water in reality... And racial bigots are much the same way, tho nowadays they are more open and uninhibited about it due to THE LYIN' KING acting as a role model and permission figure for them..

Funny and amazing, how that MAGA cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics work..

and then turn around and gripe about how they don't get the partners or leaders they want. I am surprised that you weren't getting the interest from men on dating sites, without making the first move yourself, since your profile pic would suggest your looks are at least average for women your age, if not better. I have heard that on dating sites, most women with average looks or better get lots of interest, even if most of it is unwanted and from scammers, players just looking for sex, or fake profiles, etc. But I've also heard from plenty of women in my local dating pool, including women I ended up meeting in person or dating, who said the same thing as you, as far as not getting much interest from men on dating sites. And my hunch is that for those women, same as myself in the online dating game, it's because they are a mismatch for their local dating pool, on cultural and lifestyle traits, compared to the opposite gender that makes up the majority of singles in their target age range. In my local dating pool, for example, if you don't love Jesus and country music, lean right or Repub in politics, and have kids, family that you are close to, aren't really big on social drinking, you have multiple red flags that will disqualify you with the vast majority of women in my age group. You may fall into the same category with your local online dating pool. Many people online are quick to assume the problem is with the individual single that struggles in the dating game, rather than the local gender ratios for singles on dating sites, or their mismatch with the majority of their local online dating pool.. I'm also assuming that on your dating profiles, outside of this site, that you include other pics than just your one here, including at least one full body shot pic. That seems to be the norm for dating profiles, of both genders, if you want interest from singles. As for "first dates" from dating sites, I just call them meet and greets, since they rarely go anywhere after that....