BobDylan

Mac and V., I've really enjoyed reading the dialogue between you two. Two people who are both very bright, knowledgeable, and brutally honest with others. All rare traits in this Kardashian/Idiocracy world, or at least country, that we live in. I fully agree, this site deserves much more robust and wider participation from its members and visitors, but I don't have a clue how to make that happen or encourage more of it. Maybe most of us on the lefty end are feeling just too demoralized, stressed, and depressed to participate in discussions here, who knows? But I agree with both of you on your points made in your comments above. I don't feel either of you is more right than the other in the debate over human flaws, consistency and hypocrisy. For what it's worth, mac, I probably only meet about half of your four standards about morality. I do care about animals, but will still continue to be a carnivore, who supports animals being treated well while they are living as pets, in shelters, zoos, or in the wild. I will gladly pay higher taxes, as long as it benefits all of society, not just me and my age group, and also not just white people, the rich, or corporations. I am an Agnostic, so I guess Christian hypocrisy doesn't apply to me. Lastly, even tho I will likely be dead before the 💩 really hits the fan with climate change, I do care about the world left to younger people after I'm gone, and even tho I still drive a gas powered Ford Fusion, I would gladly ride a bicycle some of my travels, if I lived in a climate warm enough to do it most of the year, or would drive an electric vehicle, if I lived in a home that would allow me to plug it in. But I don't live in such a place, and my condo apt, fits my needs best for housing, as well as being affordable. I suppose that my next car will at least be a hybrid, if I can find a late model used one in a couple years or so. So judge me as you will, mac, but I honestly think I am trying and doing better at it than most.

I agree with this analysis, moral judgement has replaced all norms of others having inalienable, permanent or universal human rights. Instead most of us now seem to feel that the rights and value of others depends solely on their membership of either our in group or the out group. Which makes for a pretty unstable, volatile Lord Of The Flies type of society. Not something to desire or want to live in.. And such a society is certain to not usually be peaceful..

I'll simply add a quote from someone whose name I can't remember, to your two man dialogue or debate. "If most Americans cared half as much about politics as they do about the Super Bowl, we would have already elected Ralph Nader twice"... Wanted to mention that after the references to Nader...

Apparently they didn't, or, more likely, they simply don't care what others think, esp. us peasants...

I guess they can't just use a cheap motel, like us peasants who cheat, because they need more privacy from the media than us peons..

Yet another example of my dark taste in music, as I used to sing this song at karaoke shows, and surprisingly, most audiences seemed to like and identify with the song.. Go figure...

Well, when you intend to rule completely by force, with monarchical tyranny, and elections no longer matter, if they are even held at all, public opinion becomes pretty irrelevant, don't ya think?

I don't think about death that often, but when I do, I really don't fear it. I just hope that when it comes, if I have any advance idea of it coming, that it's peaceful..

Believe it or not, I used to sing that song at karaoke, and got lots of stares and head-scratching... Never heard this version before, thanks for sharing it mac. I actually like it better than his early 70s version, when he was still doing his Ziggy character, singing it in costume with his acoustic guitar and Garson on piano. In this later version, he is able to concentrate even more on his vocal and add more dramatic, theatrical stuff to it, same with Garson. And being much older than in '73, probably adds even more perspective and poignance to the song for Bowie..

Garson also played in Bowie's band, The Spiders From Mars. My fav memory of Garson's playing is his piano background to Bowie's singing and acoustic guitar playing, on his cover of Jacque Brel's song, My Death.... BTW, my brother used to have that Ronson album on vinyl..

I agree with your reasoning, it may well be just one of many efforts to shut down exposure of the Epstein files.. In our present times, you can't be too paranoid, when it comes to the THE LYIN' KING regime..

Any other country would have already removed him, or not even elected him to begin with, because they had a functioning democracy, unlike us. We haven't had one for a couple decades now. Which is what led to him being elected in the first place. He is a symptom, not the disease...

Democratic socialism is the only way out of this trap..

Seems like everyone in the power circles of DC these days, and in the past few decades, are probably all in the Epstein files, because they are all part of the same class, the Epstein class.. Where political party connections or affiliations don't matter, because all of them are in the same big club, the wealthy elite..

I have little doubt of that. The corporate media were a big help to him in the last election cycle, and they wanted the Epstein files to remain buried, as far as exposing the guilty men. At the same time, the corporate media loves covering the uproar about the files, and the ratings it drives for them. The corporate media doesn't care at all about justice or helping justice be achieved, only about the public battles regarding justice.. As Lily Tomlin would say, you can never be cynical enough, when it comes to the corporate media or those with great power or money. Trust them only by their actions, not on their words..

Nah, Repubs are allergic to the truth...

Like it says on then new hat I bought from Etsy, " Keep Immigrants Deport Racists"....

Maybe more the latter than the former, but in the end, does it really matter? The bottom line is, I am part of a very small cultural minority in my state, even tho I'm a straight, white cis male. So in the end, I feel just as outnumbered and alienated, as I would if I were black or queer. BTW, Iowa is 97% white, racially, to give you an idea of how much of a minority I am, culturally rather than racially.. and that's without even getting into politics, where I am a socialist in a solid red state... In case you're wondering why I've stayed here my whole life, it's because it's where all my friends are and have been my whole adult life, and I'm not interested in moving somewhere else where I don't know a soul. It's not easy to make a whole new set of friends, even after you're retired, in a new state... and the cost of living is low.. I'm a music and cultural snob, and proud of it!

Country music sucks, always has, as far as I'm concerned. Just one of multiple reasons that I'm an alienated outcast, at least culturally, from most people where I live.. But I do like K. D. Lang's music. I also would not classify her or Bonnie Raitt as country, but suit yourself..

I hear you, Violet, and I think a lot of us feel the same way. But I'm glad you're here and that you city is holding strong against the fascists there.

I agree. Maybe that's why the Matrix trilogy of movies were so popular, because they resonated with people on how the vast majority of us live in the Matrix, the first level, without even knowing it..

Yeah, Tom Waits's voice has always been that way, on purpose. And I love it as it is!

Anyone who still listens to and takes these serial liars at face value, is not even worth engaging with, much less arguing with...

Actually, most of the Webb songs I'm familiar with, were recorded and sung by Art Garfunkel, who had a long working relationship with Webb writing songs for Art's solo albums.. Such a great voice when he was younger, but he sounds like 💩 now, even worse than Simon...

Oh thank goodness. When I first saw the song title, Summer Nights, my mind instantly went to that song of the same name, from the musical Grease, that I've grown to hate, because of all the drunken butcherings I've heard of it over my many years of karaoke at bar shows. What a relief to use your comment's link, and hear the enjoyable song she sings on it. To be honest, I had only heard a couple of her songs before, As Tears Go By, and also a song by Kurt Weil, that she recorded for an album of his songs with her and other artists covering them.. The song was Ballad Of The Soldier's Wife, on the album Lost In The Stars.