it pains me to have to post about something that is established science, that we are feeling and experiencing, like it is breaking news -- but at the same time as this pig president is gutting climate regulations the facts are... (check the spike the past 3 years)

speaking of experiencing
here in AZ, we skipped winter all-together
it's now spring

"but have you seen the DOW?"

and

"we're freezing in the East!"

6 hours ago, macphysto said:

(Ahem!) Bookmark this topic and refer to it the next time that you feel the urge to consult AI about Life, Death, and The Meaning of It All, V.3.

The Growing Environmental Impact of AI Data Centers

How AI and Data Centers Impact Climate Change

and you mean next time i consult a.i. on how to solve the energy/climate crisis, poverty, and corruption, etc.?
including how to properly regulate and responsibly use a.i so as to not waste energy, replace human creativity, etc.?

because, frankly, Mac, if it wasn't for cynics and their hands-off, no-vote approach we might not be in this current mess
or, at, least not as waist deep in it as we are right now

• the invention of fire enabled cooking vegetable soup or the flesh of sentient life forms

• the invention of the wheel can be used to build an ambulance and fire-truck, or a tank

• the invention of the car was the first harmful use of oil leading to pollution and energy waste

• the gun empowered European settlers to repel British tyrants from America, and the American Indians from their homeland

• the internet can be used to connect cultures around the world, or to connect religious and political fanatics to themselves in closed bubbles of ignorance

it's not about how much energy it takes to run artificial intelligence
it's about not wasting energy by misusing artificial intelligence
a.i. helped me build this site that you are using to communicate your opinions to the world
and, btw, i know you object to being told what to do
but kudos for you bravely TELLING ME AND THE WORLD WHAT NOT TO DO
and i suggest you be more specific.
a.i. put to proper use will probably save your life one day
or extend it
and i agree we should not waste energy misusing it to do the thinking for children
to replace relationships and human creativity

the devil is in the details
i suggest that when you tell other people what to do and what not to do
be specific
if you were, i'd probably, mostly agree with you

aim your stones

also, Mac, since i should be aiming my stones...

1. the guy who enacted climate change regulations and the guy who joined the international climate accord
   are guys you didn't vote for

2. the guy who put an end to both
   is the guy you didn't vote against

and here's the thing...
if people like me had voted for Ralph Nader or a third party
in a TWO party system
we wouldn't even have had #1
and the Spring i'm experiencing in my Arizona winter
might already be a summer

think it through, my friend

I'll simply add a quote from someone whose name I can't remember, to your two man dialogue or debate. "If most Americans cared half as much about politics as they do about the Super Bowl, we would have already elected Ralph Nader twice"... Wanted to mention that after the references to Nader...

6 hours ago, BobDylan said:

"If most Americans cared half as much about politics as they do about the Super Bowl, we would have already elected Ralph Nader twice"

unfortunately, that is not true. Americans of both parties say they vote the way they do because they care about America and politics. If all the progressive idealists in the Dem Party voted Nader he still wouldn't have been elected because we all have mixed emotions shaped by the corporate media. There is only one path -- incremental change. There's no truth pill -- progressive lever that can be pulled.

11 hours ago, macphysto said:

...America will always have a two-party system, so why bother try to change it? So silly and a waste of time, right? Ditto regarding...

i believe your thrust is what they call a "strawman" argument, since the straw/words are of your construction, not mine. I believe the 2-Party system can and MUST be changed. It begins by electing Obamas and forcing them to go further. It will never change all at once (and a.i. is a viable tool towards that goal, if we can elect someone ready and willing to drastically regulate it, in cooperation with the rest of the world.)

your approach, is similar to Nancy Reagan's "just say no" to drugs policy, or worse. Melania's "Be Best" campaign. (sorry for the company. It's an oversimplification. but you get the idea).

(and speaking of mis-categorizations. i resent the "Planet Lord" label. Though we share the know-it-all branding, i acknowledge i am only Captain of my own ship. And only one of us admits that he CAN, MUST, and is WILLING to change. But i will resist any kind of "Mac-Lord" labeling. And we should stay on topic.)

yes, i had our prior discussion in mind when i replied in this thread. i was aware and willing to discuss it further, i just hoped to do it elsewhere. (i'll move it. or copy it since i made an energy connection). Indeed we are only human, so i remind myself and encourage others to "be better." Maybe Melania's on to something. And if some people want a medal for working on it more than others, my reply is, "gold or silver." It's those people who make a difference in the world. Jesus, MLK, etc.. were flawed human beings, BUT THEY STILL PREACHED and i thank them for doing so.

the right uses that "hypocricy" tact to dismiss anyone who tries. for an admittedly, hyperbolic example, if Greta Thunberg didn't arrive on a bicycle to a U.N. meeting to convince world leaders to cut emissions she'd be ridiculed and dismissed. Again. i think you get the idea. Even if not, at least it again shifts this discussion back on topic.

1 hour ago, macphysto said:

Hey Man, you (virtually) created a "planet," not a starship. Don't be so humble.

for the moment, i only created a site. but i'm working on it. thank you.

Mac and V., I've really enjoyed reading the dialogue between you two. Two people who are both very bright, knowledgeable, and brutally honest with others. All rare traits in this Kardashian/Idiocracy world, or at least country, that we live in. I fully agree, this site deserves much more robust and wider participation from its members and visitors, but I don't have a clue how to make that happen or encourage more of it. Maybe most of us on the lefty end are feeling just too demoralized, stressed, and depressed to participate in discussions here, who knows? But I agree with both of you on your points made in your comments above. I don't feel either of you is more right than the other in the debate over human flaws, consistency and hypocrisy. For what it's worth, mac, I probably only meet about half of your four standards about morality. I do care about animals, but will still continue to be a carnivore, who supports animals being treated well while they are living as pets, in shelters, zoos, or in the wild. I will gladly pay higher taxes, as long as it benefits all of society, not just me and my age group, and also not just white people, the rich, or corporations. I am an Agnostic, so I guess Christian hypocrisy doesn't apply to me. Lastly, even tho I will likely be dead before the 💩 really hits the fan with climate change, I do care about the world left to younger people after I'm gone, and even tho I still drive a gas powered Ford Fusion, I would gladly ride a bicycle some of my travels, if I lived in a climate warm enough to do it most of the year, or would drive an electric vehicle, if I lived in a home that would allow me to plug it in. But I don't live in such a place, and my condo apt, fits my needs best for housing, as well as being affordable.

I suppose that my next car will at least be a hybrid, if I can find a late model used one in a couple years or so. So judge me as you will, mac, but I honestly think I am trying and doing better at it than most.

I also wanted to say, that I used to be active on reddit, and just like what you said, mac, about Yahoo's forums, there was so much constant posting and argument about the more trivial stuff of life on there, that like you, I was almost dumbfounded by the lack of intellect and seriousness among most folks on there. I know that reddit probably trends younger than this site, but it seemed like everyone was allergic to commenting seriously about anything, and instead it was all about who could post the best snark or be the top ridiculer of anyone who posted anything serious or vulnerable about themselves. In other words, online verbal dodgeball between middle schoolers...

19 minutes ago, macphysto said:

1 hour ago, V.3 said:

for the moment, i only created a site. but i'm working on it. thank you.

You're welcome, and thank you for your patience and courtesy.

Pardon me (or don't) for detouring off the topic, but while we're on the subject . . .

I genuinely and immensely admire your skill, talent, and vision in designing newBluePlanet, V.3. I applaud your noble mission to provide a salon for liberals and progressives. I stand in awe of your valiant, artistic effort . . . which, alas, I don't think is suitably rewarded by nBP citizenry. I find the meagre participation in nBP forums annoying.

Every day I see "guests" -- sometimes many guests -- viewing forum topics, and that's all they do: view topics! They aren't joining in! They aren't contributing! WT . . ., citizens?!

If folks only have cell phones, I get it! If I had only a cell phone, I wouldn't participate either.

The only other social media forums that I frequent are Yahoo! comment "communities," which get a LOT of action! Even the most (to me) vapid Yahoo! articles generate hundreds, sometimes thousands of responses. Yahoo! serves up a report on the world's cutest puppies or Sydney Sweeney's cuter "puppies," and several hundred knuckleheads (who have entirely too much time on their hands) feel compelled to spout off and argue about that!

Meanwhile thought-provoking and important nBP topics stagnate like barren, dead planets in the cyberspace void.

Why, citizens? W-h-y?

and indeed you are trying, Mac. You actually post more than i do. And, it is fair to say you wouldn't participate on a cell. I wouldn't either. I don't do anything on my cell. It's a phone to me.

The W-h-y? i accept. I may have overdone it with this site -- to organized, too many features, that only you may understand as much as i do.

i go through cycles. Right now i've been working on new songs -- that come to me in dreams. But soon i do plan on working on that "new.blue.planet" thread. And here's where it ties into the W-h-y?

regardless of the endeavor, people have to see, WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME? And, frankly, when they see a small group like us, you, BD, and Lindy, they might think, that's not enough activity, or those are good writer's and i'm not. Or, simply, what's the point? there's no way out of this mess. That's why i push back with my brand of naive optimism, and stress we don't have to be guiltless to suggest, even demand more from each other.

now. back to "what's in it for me?" and planet building (and as a result, forum building). My primary plan always was to build that new blue planet, as soon as i can concentrate on that. The operative Field Of Dreams expression is "if you build it, they will come." Not to just a political forum, or a single's service. To a vision of an idealistic world that offers humans something much, much better than we're getting now. That we CAN have. I'm confident it will be compelling...

34 minutes ago, BobDylan said:

... I honestly think I am trying and doing better at it than most.

i concur, BD. Even your participation here in itself is evidence that you are putting in the work. Thank you.

To Mac's point about combatting climate change during our affordability crisis...

My understanding about what can be expected of us citizens is and should be tied to what is reasonably possible and therein lies a dilemma; who decides what is reasonable if not the person making the decision? I want an electric car. I drive a gas car. I have no guilt. I do have concerns. I will switch if and when I can by my own reconing. That may not be possible before I expire. That may be possible before I expire. I do not want to be forced to not drive to save the planet when a US regime change can nullify and largely walk back WAY PAST everything I've done within my power to move the climate change needle in the direction I thnk it should go. I do not take responsibility for doing everything possible at every step I can see where I can make a difference because that view is hubris. I am a committed believer in combatting climate change. I am not in conflict with my dicisions on this issue so far.

Very honest and rational on your part, Rob... Also quite humble...