it's not just veganism. There are coordinated industry social media manipulations and attacks on all kinds of food products

Coordinated Attacks on Veganism

How Industry-Backed Campaigns Shape Online Discourse

I don't know why some people think that scolding, ridiculing, and sarcasm are effective methods of persuasion. At the risk of incurring your ire, Cap'n, I agree with Bill Maher (and I'm paraphrasing), ridiculing doesn't make people rethink their behavior; it makes them rethink you.

The adage "You catch more flies with honey than you'll catch with vinegar" applies. Although, excrement probably catches the most flies, so . . . so much for that "wise old saying."

A better, more successful strategy to entice carnivores toward veganism or vegetarianism is to attract them with tantalizing descriptions of how delicious dairy-free substitutes and meatless comestibles are. Ultimately, everyone's taste buds are different. Some folks will never enjoy oat milk, soy milk, tofu, or an eggplant burger (Present! I hate eggplant!). But some adventurous explorers with willing palates might. There are beaucoup non-dairy and meatless plant-based alternatives on the market, some of which, to me, are very tasty! I'll give a shout-out to Field Roast Grains Meat Company Smoked Apple & Sage Plant-Based Sausages, Daring Original Shredded Plant Chicken, Beyond Burgers and Impossible Burgers, Alpha Foods Grilled Chik'n Strips (lamentably, no longer available at supermarkets near me), and Tofurky Plant-Based Deli Slices.

Vegan Kevin needs to toss out the vinegar and replace it with honey . . . and take a spoonful himself to sweeten his sour disposition.

I am a lifelong carnivore, tho in my older age I purposely eat a lot less red meat, and a lot more fish than I used to eat. I see the issue of vegans and vegetarians trying to change carnivores as something that is very unlikely to work, on any great or near term scale, so while I applaud their personal changes and choices, that have improved their own health and lessened their environmental footprint and helped them feel increased integrity and moral pureness, this needs to be more of a back burner issue in the political and culture wars these days. Because it's really going to alienate the working class and poor Americans who we need as allies. I see this as having or becoming the same sort of wedge issue as abortion has long been, only in this case, lower class Americans are likely to see it as higher educated, more privileged members of the elite telling them how to live their personal lives, in this case, telling them what is acceptable to eat or not. And one thing I've learned is that most Americans hate people who see them as their betters, telling them what to do. Every time, they only end up feeling resentful and wanting to lash back at those members of the supposed better class. Which is a big part of why we got THE LYIN' KING. So I advise against adding fuel to the fire of the class war, as far as alienating those who are or should be our class allies, in the war against the rich and corporations, who are everyone's real enemies in it. I know some lefties will see this as selfish on my part, but I think it's simply being pragmatic..

3 hours ago, macphysto said:

I don't know why some people think that scolding, ridiculing, and sarcasm are effective methods of persuasion. At the risk of incurring your ire, Cap'n, I agree with Bill Maher (and I'm paraphrasing), ridiculing doesn't make people rethink their behavior; it makes them rethink you.

it doesn't make sense for Maher to say that since his career was built on "scolding, ridiculing, and sarcasm"

and it doesn't make sense for you or i to say that, since, we both stopped eating meat because someone pointed out the hypocrisy and insensitivity of it

and it doesn't make sense for any of us here who pull no punches when it comes to our style of dealing with the Lyin' King and his supporters. I'm not getting the scent of "honey" anywhere.

3 hours ago, BobDylan said:

this needs to be more of a back burner issue in the political and culture wars these days.

but it is very "back-burner" and always has been -- even though it's the key to the climate change crisis which can absolutely not be a back-burned because we may literally burn up if we wait for the issue to become, shall we say, palatable

anyway, for the purposes of newBluePlanet all issues are on the table

I get that. but right now we are fighting a present battle against fascism, that if lost, will end any chance at ever dealing with climate change in the future. Time is about running out on both of those fronts, I get that... And to win either of those wars, we will need class solidarity, of the 99% against the 1%...

I agree with BobDylan. Nothing gets under my skin more than when people make comments about what I eat. I'm lucky to be a size four, yet I've had a co-worker comment, "Do you know how fattening a Caesar salad is?" as I'm eating my Caesar salad.

I gave up Diet Coke, but I fully admit it was my "vice" for many years. There was a woman I worked with who was obese. She used to proclaim loudly how she had food allergies, but when there were donuts in the faculty room, guess where she was? One time, she saw me drinking a Diet Coke and didn't hesitate to tell me I was drinking poison.

One more anecdotal story (I promise). A woman who was in a hiking group was a vegan. During our long hikes, she would go on and on about the horrors of the food industry. It wasn't a conversation that many of us felt like having while we were trying to enjoy nature. She was obsessed and seemingly couldn't talk about anything else, even when another member deliberately tried to change the direction of the conversation.

Both my dog and my cat are rescues. I'm a teacher who struggles to stay on budget, but I will pay extra for humanely raised food products. Is this enough for the vegans? Absolutely not. As the meme posted above states, they view me as a hypocrite. And all that does is create a wedge between us.

Thanks for the backing. I feel your pain about the obnoxious hiking group member, tho I've been guilty of that sometimes myself, letting my passion for an issue overcome my interest in reading the room and letting others enjoy their wish to attend to something more appealing to them. As for people who relish in getting on your case and personally judging and attacking you for simply not living up to their own ridiculously strict standards for how everyone should live or behave, my personal pet peeve is the PC speech code warriors I encounter at times, who obviously only care about their PC speech codes, rather than economic justice or any other progressive policies. Those people love to swoop in and bash anyone they catch saying anything politically incorrect, because it makes them feel morally superior, to the point where it no longer matters if the speaker is saying the obvious truth, because their speech doesn't fit strict PC code, so they feel free to disregard any truth or honesty to the point or content shared by the politically incorrect speaker. Call me crazy, but the truth should still count for something, rather than PC speech codes being the sole substitute or virtue in place of it. It feels annoying and alienating, when they care more about their speech codes, than about the motives or intent of the speaker who accidentally violates their speech codes..

As for your lifestyle, it sounds to me like you are doing the best anyone could for your means, same as most of us, in living an honest and humane life, so you deserve for people to get off your back..

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

tho I've been guilty of that sometimes myself, letting my passion for an issue overcome...letting others enjoy their wish to attend to something more appealing

there in lies the key to where we are in our ethical evolution

1. we are willing to judge, but not to be judged

2. we are willing to dismiss our own hypocrisies under the guise of "letting us enjoy something"

3. 200 years ago, you might have said, let the guests enjoy the meal picked and served by the owner's slaves

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

attacking you for simply not living up to their own ridiculously strict standards

that's not really true. There are thousands of food products in our grocery store that do not come from animals (that can suffer the same as our pet cats and dogs, and take less of our toll on our environment)

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

(saying) how everyone should live or behave.

we're telling people how to live and behave all over this forum

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

you are doing the best anyone could for your means, same as most of us, in living an honest and humane life

i don't believe you believe that's true, and that's what makes you sensitive about it

your ego is telling you that someone else is claiming to be "superior." More ethical.

here's the thing.
BD, Scary, and MacP could do better. V3 could do better
and none of us are more superior than MAGA
we just behave better
but, for example, i buy products i know were made from slave wages. and i use a.i.
i could do better
i confess my sins -- and i will try to do better

THE FIRST STEP IS TO STOP MAKING EXCUSES. ACKNOWLEDGE THE BAD BEHAVIOR AND PROMOTE THE GOOD BEHAVIOR
yes, like we're all friggin puppies that need to be trained!

again. this is newBluePlanet
the whole idea here is to talk about the way the world, logically, should be.
make excuses with friends and family if that makes you feel better
but this should be a space where we build on the truth
AT LEAST IN THEORY
for a start
a new start
something hopeful to believe in
and strive for

Well V., one thing's for sure, you win the prize for being the most idealistic of all of us here. I hope your aims come true in the future. Happy NY....

19 hours ago, V.3 said:

"it doesn't make sense for Maher to say that since his career was built on "scolding, ridiculing, and sarcasm . . ."

Just to clarify, Maher's actual statement (linked by you on November 22) was "Ultimatums don't make people rethink their politics, they make them rethink you." I modified it to suit my comment about Kevin Veegan's Facebook post.

19 hours ago, V.3 said:

". . . and it doesn't make sense for you or i to say that, since, we both stopped eating meat because someone pointed out the hypocrisy and insensitivity of it . . ."

I don't know the details about why you stopped eating meat, Cap'n. I described my epiphany on November 13, and it didn't happen because I was scolded, ridiculed, or smacked upside the head with sarcasm. My unwitting "guru" didn't browbeat me with her vegetarianism. She simply and eloquently responded to my question "Why are you a vegetarian?" I'm following her sterling example. I'm not badgering carnivores about their (to me, heartless) diet. I'm like Dracula, figuratively speaking. I must first be invited into the conversation. I don't just rudely and self-righteously pounce on meat eaters, fangs bared, eyes a-blaze bellowing, "VILLAINS! FOR SHAME! REPENT"

Holier-than-thou is not a good look on me . . . or anyone, IMO.

22 hours ago, BobDylan said:

" . . . this needs to be more of a back burner issue in the political and culture wars these days. Because it's really going to alienate the working class and poor Americans who we need as allies . . ."

So, you're saying that there are no vegans and vegetarians among the working-class and the poor? Hmmm, you might be right, BD.

22 hours ago, BobDylan said:

". . . And one thing I've learned is that most Americans hate people who see them as their betters, telling them what to do. Every time, they only end up feeling resentful and wanting to lash back at those members of the supposed better class. Which is a big part of why we got THE LYIN' KING . . ."

In the modern vernacular, WORD!

Man, when it comes to know-it-alls; influencers; self-appointed, so-called experts; and other nudnik buttinskies . . .

I've had it up to here!

Concerning how to influence more people to become vegetarians or vegans (and also save Planet Earth), here is some suggested reading: Conservative consumer disinterest in plant-based meat: A problem of message incongruence.

"The drive to encourage consumers to reduce animal meat protein has resulted in a substantial market for plant-based meat products. Despite willingness and acceptance among certain sectors of the population, there remains a large proportion of consumers unwilling to try plant-based meat. Through the lens of political ideology and applying message congruence theory, we demonstrate that current message framing is incongruent to conservative consumers in the USA. A pre-test (n = 262), using political ideology to predict willingness to try plant-based meat, revealed a significant effect such that conservatives were significantly less likely to want to learn about plant-based meat or to try it. A content analysis (n = 82) of press releases from a major plant-based meat company highlights that plant-based meat is promoted based on three key benefits: taste, health, and the environment. Finally, in an experiment, conservative participants (n = 200) were randomly assigned to view an advertisement for a plant-based meat company that either cited environmental benefits or did not. Results demonstrate the presence of incongruence in messaging, where environmental benefits are shown to be less effective for conservative leaning consumers . . ."

3 hours ago, V.3 said:

" . . . here's the thing.
BD, Scary, and MacP could do better. V3 could do better . . .

I don't know about B.D. and scarylibrarian. But in my case, Brother, you don't know the half of it.

3 hours ago, V.3 said:

" . . . but, for example . . . i use a.i."

I'm glad that you acknowledged that sin, Cap'n. Let he who is without sin, and all that jazz.

Now go stand in the corner and write (you write, not AI!) "I will not use AI." 100 times on the derrière of that obese busybody who got awl up in scarylibrarian's bidness.

Great comments, mac, and thanks for the two references you provided, the link to the article and the study you cited. Not surprised that the only messaging that might work on conservative leaning subjects, were health benefits and taste of plant-based meat products, and even then, I bet the taste would still be a hard sell to lifelong conservative meat eaters. My only experience with something like that, personally, is my quitting drinking alcohol in 1995, and never really missing it, so it wasn't hard to give up. And I still feel that by the middle 2000s, the beer companies came up with non alcohol beers that actually tasted pretty good. Nowadays, there are a lot of those NA beers on the market, and almost all of them taste just as good as their regular alcohol beers of the same brand. One example of capitalism actually doing a good job of recognizing a new market and doing the right thing to meet and accommodate it. But meat is going to be a much harder challenge, due to how politicized it is, and how, as you said, classism is already strongly linked to the anti meat movement.. Compared to how politicized mask wearing, vaccines, and social distancing were, during Covid, this is a matter that is more like many times more conflictual..

As for using AI, I'm a lifelong Luddite and curmadgeon, so like a lot of tech stuff, I don't trust it and resist it as much as I can, so I won't be guilty of that sin, as I don't even own a smartphone.. As for the pic of the woman's ass, you are a fellow heretic from PC, but I do draw the line of making fun of the appearance of strangers or random people, since I am far from great looking, and would rather we all be judged on our character, actions, and ideas than on our looks. But it's still fun to make fun of THE LYIN' KING's looks, and even those of MAGA, as far as I'm concerned, since for the time being, it's punching up, instead of down, since they have all the power for now..

i'll concede this to the 3 of you. There is a time and place for speaking up and out

but it's not when convenient
it could be mitigated by when it's strategic
and the place is this forum, and the time is now

that's what it was built for

we've already got plenty of social networks with friends and family where we have to worry that our ideas might make someone uncomfortable

I can only speak for myself, V., but on my FB page, where I share with my friends, as well as when I communicate with my siblings, who are my only family still left, I say whatever I want to, and if it makes any of them uncomfortable, too bad... They've long ago gotten used to it from me, lol....

As for social networks and social media, and having to watch what you say to not make others uncomfortable, I'm already seeing some posters on Substack, who are no longer going to be posting articles or essays, at least not under their own name, out of fear that they will be targeted by the feds, FBI, DOJ, or DHS, for being critical or dissenting from the THE LYIN' KING MAGA party line. To me, that is a very chilling sign, same as the likelihood that FB has or will be banning anyone who is too critical of THE LYIN' KING and the Repubs. So posting and commenting on the net may become very risky or costly. The whole thing of people starting to go underground or anonymous in their online comments regarding THE LYIN' KING and MAGA, seems way too much like the bad part of the 1960s, when many young people started to go underground to avoid detection and persecution from the feds, over their involvement in radical anti war or civil rights groups. They even became an organized group, The Weather Underground.... Like then, we need to be aware and vigilant about the same infiltration methods being used by the feds to undermine and go after members of our side. But this time, their survelliance methods are far more advanced and insidious..

I tend to just go with the flow if I’m out with someone who eats different from me. I can really enjoy many different foods from a variety of cultures. I have no problem eating vegan or vegetarian most times.

I am a carnivore, but I too try to just go with the flow and let others eat what they want. All I ask or need is a compromise where we go out to eat somewhere that has one thing on the menu I want and like. As for eating at home, I don't expect anyone to cook for me, and I don't cook, so we can each eat what we like, even if I have to bring my own food. It doesn't have to be a conflict or difference like smokers and non smokers, where that is something that does affect the other person's health, if the smoker smokes in the same room as them. And for me, dating a daily smoker is a dealbreaker in dating, as I don't enjoy kissing someone who's mouth smells like an ashtray, lol.. Altho I've heard from singer Natalie Merchant, a musician and vegetarian, that she said kissing a meat eater felt equally gross to her. So I guess for some, eating and smoking habits can be equal dealbreakers in dating, depending on how extreme either person is in their preferences..

Greetings, ToledoMike, and thank you for joining the discussion!

2 hours ago, BobDylan said:

. . . I guess for some, eating and smoking habits can be equal dealbreakers in dating, depending on how extreme either person is in their preferences..

Greetings from The Extreme Zone.

I am a vegetarian solely because I care about animals (saving the planet is "beyond my pay grade" and if I cared about my health, I wouldn't be wearing stretch pants). Now that I am retired and have more freedom to choose the people I dine with, I avoid dining with carnivores.

Here comes the extreme part.

For me, dining with a meat eater would be akin to me sharing a meal with a child molester, KKK member, Nazi, serial killer, MAGA zealot, or pickleball fanatic. At this stage in my life, there are some things that I absolutely will not compromise on and "let slide." Not watching someone chewing on animal flesh is one of them.

Fair enough, I appreciate your honesty. I doubt we will ever meet in person, much less ever dine together. But I hope you'll still respect and like me as a person, regardless of my eating habits, as I am way more moral and ethical than most people, in every other way. You can't have everything in everybody, lol.. But your reaction here may explain why diet is a dealbreaker for some liberal women with me, after the issue comes up, even if we were compatible in every other way. Something for me to be aware of, in the dating game, even tho my profile says nothing about that issue and I seldom see it in any women's dating profiles. Maybe it's something that should be included in all dating profiles, same as religion and politics.. Same as I can't stand hearing country music and would never be comfortable dating someone who was a daily cig smoker... We all have our standards and preferences, the only thing that matters, is that we be honest and open about them with people we encounter in the dating game, and it's also healthy that said standards and preferences be realistic for what we ourselves bring to the table, or have to offer a partner. Otherwise, we are just bringing grief to ourselves and others in the dating game..

I too am retired, and am also rather choosy about who I keep company with. In fact, there are probably only a handful of people at my local senior center that I ever choose to sit with and talk with, since all the rest of them have nothing really in common with me, besides being 60 or older, living in my town and coming to that center to eat. Like you, I'm too old to put up with bull💩 or volunteer for conflict and irritation by engaging with people that are on another planet, for all practical purposes, in education level, intelligence, politics, culture, and religious beliefs. So if nobody that I already know and like is available to sit with, I gladly sit alone there. Better than the flack and friction of engaging with strangers who may as well be from a foreign country speaking another language..

Hopefully, you'll still see me as someone better and different than those first three groups of deplorables that you mentioned.,. Probably 90% of the population of my state, Iowa, are carnivores, yet a good 40% of them vote for Dems and are not members of your three groups of deplorables, so categorizing them that way for one practice seems a bit reductive and overly simplistic..

I have seen a few dating profiles that write their diet preference is vegan or vegetarian. But hopefully, the person is honest enough that if it is a line in the sand, they will communicate that. My son's partner is a vegetarian. No one in her family is a vegetarian, and my large family is not. Therefore, she is used to bringing her own food to family gatherings. When she comes to my home, I always make sure there are plenty of dishes she can eat. I'm going to use her as an example because I never thought it would be so upsetting to vegans to be around us. But now, reading Macphysto's comparison that meat eaters are akin to a child molester, I am re-thinking how I will move forward when I know someone is a vegan. Which for me, personally, is not difficult. I don't consider myself a "carnivore". I try to eat a Mediterranean diet, and I love my veggies. So it would never feel like a sacrifice to eat a vegetarian meal. (like you, ToledoMike!) My issue is, and always will be, the intrusive comments about what people eat. Here is where I don't consider myself a hypocrite. If I know a colleague is MAGA, I don't discuss politics with them. I recently learned a colleague is not vaccinating her children. I'm disgusted but will keep this to myself. I have to work with this young woman, and I sure know how emotional new mothers are. No thank you on that discussion. So I guess it all falls into line. I don't intrude on other politics or religion or food choices. It isn't easy when the same courtesy is not extended to me in the workplace. I can't wait until I'm finally retired and can be more like Macphysto, choosing who to be around in the faculty lunchroom!

Trust me, scary, you will love retirement, not only with the free time it will bring, but more greatly the freedom to say exactly what you think, for the most part with most people. If you're financially secure and comfortable, all you need to enjoy it is your health, a decent social circle, and several interests, which for people like us is easy, as we are already fairly independent and intellectually curious, so we naturally find ways to fill our time after retiring, even if we have to do it mostly without companionship. That last thing is really the only thing I'm lacking in my life, so it follows that my interest in the dating game is more serious than most women my age, who are already mostly fulfilled emotionally and socially with their adult kids and grandkids, neither of which I have..

If being vegan is a line in the sand for being partnered, I can and will respect that in the dating game, tho I've rarely run across it in my local dating pool, living in Iowa which is a farming state with almost everybody being a carnivore and lots of meatpacking plants and livestock operations, etc.. But if it isn't a line in the sand for a woman, I'm fine with compromising and each of us providing and eating whatever we want. Obviously that wouldn't work with a female version of mac, lol... But I do have my own lines in the sand on politics and religion, regarding dating, as I won't waste my time or a woman's, with dating a Libertarian, conservative, or Trumper. Same with someone whose religion and beliefs are fundamentalist, conservative, or very strongly religious, as it just wouldn't work.. And I do feel your pain about co-workers, as my last job before retirement, was chock full of co workers that were conservative Christians and Repubs... They also were very bigoted towards queer folk and not very smart or educated. It was a lot of tongue biting on my part..

14 hours ago, scarylibrarian said:

". . . But now, reading Macphysto's comparison that meat eaters are akin to a child molester, I am re-thinking how I will move forward when I know someone is a vegan."

I speak only for myself and not for all vegetarians and vegans. So don't rethink how you will move forward with vegans whom you know because of my attitude, scarylibrarian.

15 hours ago, BobDylan said:

". . . Probably 90% of the population of my state, Iowa, are carnivores, yet a good 40% of them vote for Dems and are not members of your three groups of deplorables, so categorizing them that way for one practice seems a bit reductive and overly simplistic."

Well, I'm a reductive and overly simplistic kinda guy, BD.

A carnivore's political affiliation and ideology are irrelevant and inconsequential to me. Humaneness is the paramount quality that I prize. Were He to "return," I'd shun Jesus Christ because of His singular loaves and fishes miracle.

You and scarylibrarian are antiseptically discussing eating meat. I'm discussing eating animals -- to me, a significant and nonignorable distinction. Again, I'll cite the, for me, profound and epiphanous statement that was responsible for my conversion to vegetarianism: "I don't want to eat anything that has to die to satisfy my appetite."

I'll refrain from posting a video clip of the 1949 French documentary Le Sang des bêtes (Blood of the Beasts) because I don't think that shocking people's sensibilities is a good and effective form of persuasion. If you are interested in watching it, you can find it on YouTube. Director Georges Franju thankfully shot his film in black and white and without sound.

I will, however, puckishly invite you to imagine plunging one of your hands into a pot of boiling water the next time that you feel peckish for crab or lobster.

Bon appétit, Madame et Monsieur Carnivore.