it's not just veganism. There are coordinated industry social media manipulations and attacks on all kinds of food products

Coordinated Attacks on Veganism

How Industry-Backed Campaigns Shape Online Discourse

I am a lifelong carnivore, tho in my older age I purposely eat a lot less red meat, and a lot more fish than I used to eat. I see the issue of vegans and vegetarians trying to change carnivores as something that is very unlikely to work, on any great or near term scale, so while I applaud their personal changes and choices, that have improved their own health and lessened their environmental footprint and helped them feel increased integrity and moral pureness, this needs to be more of a back burner issue in the political and culture wars these days. Because it's really going to alienate the working class and poor Americans who we need as allies. I see this as having or becoming the same sort of wedge issue as abortion has long been, only in this case, lower class Americans are likely to see it as higher educated, more privileged members of the elite telling them how to live their personal lives, in this case, telling them what is acceptable to eat or not. And one thing I've learned is that most Americans hate people who see them as their betters, telling them what to do. Every time, they only end up feeling resentful and wanting to lash back at those members of the supposed better class. Which is a big part of why we got THE LYIN' KING. So I advise against adding fuel to the fire of the class war, as far as alienating those who are or should be our class allies, in the war against the rich and corporations, who are everyone's real enemies in it. I know some lefties will see this as selfish on my part, but I think it's simply being pragmatic..

3 hours ago, macphysto said:

I don't know why some people think that scolding, ridiculing, and sarcasm are effective methods of persuasion. At the risk of incurring your ire, Cap'n, I agree with Bill Maher (and I'm paraphrasing), ridiculing doesn't make people rethink their behavior; it makes them rethink you.

it doesn't make sense for Maher to say that since his career was built on "scolding, ridiculing, and sarcasm"

and it doesn't make sense for you or i to say that, since, we both stopped eating meat because someone pointed out the hypocrisy and insensitivity of it

and it doesn't make sense for any of us here who pull no punches when it comes to our style of dealing with the Lyin' King and his supporters. I'm not getting the scent of "honey" anywhere.

3 hours ago, BobDylan said:

this needs to be more of a back burner issue in the political and culture wars these days.

but it is very "back-burner" and always has been -- even though it's the key to the climate change crisis which can absolutely not be a back-burned because we may literally burn up if we wait for the issue to become, shall we say, palatable

anyway, for the purposes of newBluePlanet all issues are on the table

I agree with BobDylan. Nothing gets under my skin more than when people make comments about what I eat. I'm lucky to be a size four, yet I've had a co-worker comment, "Do you know how fattening a Caesar salad is?" as I'm eating my Caesar salad.

I gave up Diet Coke, but I fully admit it was my "vice" for many years. There was a woman I worked with who was obese. She used to proclaim loudly how she had food allergies, but when there were donuts in the faculty room, guess where she was? One time, she saw me drinking a Diet Coke and didn't hesitate to tell me I was drinking poison.

One more anecdotal story (I promise). A woman who was in a hiking group was a vegan. During our long hikes, she would go on and on about the horrors of the food industry. It wasn't a conversation that many of us felt like having while we were trying to enjoy nature. She was obsessed and seemingly couldn't talk about anything else, even when another member deliberately tried to change the direction of the conversation.

Both my dog and my cat are rescues. I'm a teacher who struggles to stay on budget, but I will pay extra for humanely raised food products. Is this enough for the vegans? Absolutely not. As the meme posted above states, they view me as a hypocrite. And all that does is create a wedge between us.

Thanks for the backing. I feel your pain about the obnoxious hiking group member, tho I've been guilty of that sometimes myself, letting my passion for an issue overcome my interest in reading the room and letting others enjoy their wish to attend to something more appealing to them. As for people who relish in getting on your case and personally judging and attacking you for simply not living up to their own ridiculously strict standards for how everyone should live or behave, my personal pet peeve is the PC speech code warriors I encounter at times, who obviously only care about their PC speech codes, rather than economic justice or any other progressive policies. Those people love to swoop in and bash anyone they catch saying anything politically incorrect, because it makes them feel morally superior, to the point where it no longer matters if the speaker is saying the obvious truth, because their speech doesn't fit strict PC code, so they feel free to disregard any truth or honesty to the point or content shared by the politically incorrect speaker. Call me crazy, but the truth should still count for something, rather than PC speech codes being the sole substitute or virtue in place of it. It feels annoying and alienating, when they care more about their speech codes, than about the motives or intent of the speaker who accidentally violates their speech codes..

As for your lifestyle, it sounds to me like you are doing the best anyone could for your means, same as most of us, in living an honest and humane life, so you deserve for people to get off your back..

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

tho I've been guilty of that sometimes myself, letting my passion for an issue overcome...letting others enjoy their wish to attend to something more appealing

there in lies the key to where we are in our ethical evolution

1. we are willing to judge, but not to be judged

2. we are willing to dismiss our own hypocrisies under the guise of "letting us enjoy something"

3. 200 years ago, you might have said, let the guests enjoy the meal picked and served by the owner's slaves

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

attacking you for simply not living up to their own ridiculously strict standards

that's not really true. There are thousands of food products in our grocery store that do not come from animals (that can suffer the same as our pet cats and dogs, and take less of our toll on our environment)

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

(saying) how everyone should live or behave.

we're telling people how to live and behave all over this forum

4 hours ago, BobDylan said:

you are doing the best anyone could for your means, same as most of us, in living an honest and humane life

i don't believe you believe that's true, and that's what makes you sensitive about it

your ego is telling you that someone else is claiming to be "superior." More ethical.

here's the thing.
BD, Scary, and MacP could do better. V3 could do better
and none of us are more superior than MAGA
we just behave better
but, for example, i buy products i know were made from slave wages. and i use a.i.
i could do better
i confess my sins -- and i will try to do better

THE FIRST STEP IS TO STOP MAKING EXCUSES. ACKNOWLEDGE THE BAD BEHAVIOR AND PROMOTE THE GOOD BEHAVIOR
yes, like we're all friggin puppies that need to be trained!

again. this is newBluePlanet
the whole idea here is to talk about the way the world, logically, should be.
make excuses with friends and family if that makes you feel better
but this should be a space where we build on the truth
AT LEAST IN THEORY
for a start
a new start
something hopeful to believe in
and strive for

Well V., one thing's for sure, you win the prize for being the most idealistic of all of us here. I hope your aims come true in the future. Happy NY....

i'll concede this to the 3 of you. There is a time and place for speaking up and out

but it's not when convenient
it could be mitigated by when it's strategic
and the place is this forum, and the time is now

that's what it was built for

we've already got plenty of social networks with friends and family where we have to worry that our ideas might make someone uncomfortable

I can only speak for myself, V., but on my FB page, where I share with my friends, as well as when I communicate with my siblings, who are my only family still left, I say whatever I want to, and if it makes any of them uncomfortable, too bad... They've long ago gotten used to it from me, lol....

I tend to just go with the flow if I’m out with someone who eats different from me. I can really enjoy many different foods from a variety of cultures. I have no problem eating vegan or vegetarian most times.

I am a carnivore, but I too try to just go with the flow and let others eat what they want. All I ask or need is a compromise where we go out to eat somewhere that has one thing on the menu I want and like. As for eating at home, I don't expect anyone to cook for me, and I don't cook, so we can each eat what we like, even if I have to bring my own food. It doesn't have to be a conflict or difference like smokers and non smokers, where that is something that does affect the other person's health, if the smoker smokes in the same room as them. And for me, dating a daily smoker is a dealbreaker in dating, as I don't enjoy kissing someone who's mouth smells like an ashtray, lol.. Altho I've heard from singer Natalie Merchant, a musician and vegetarian, that she said kissing a meat eater felt equally gross to her. So I guess for some, eating and smoking habits can be equal dealbreakers in dating, depending on how extreme either person is in their preferences..

I have seen a few dating profiles that write their diet preference is vegan or vegetarian. But hopefully, the person is honest enough that if it is a line in the sand, they will communicate that. My son's partner is a vegetarian. No one in her family is a vegetarian, and my large family is not. Therefore, she is used to bringing her own food to family gatherings. When she comes to my home, I always make sure there are plenty of dishes she can eat. I'm going to use her as an example because I never thought it would be so upsetting to vegans to be around us. But now, reading Macphysto's comparison that meat eaters are akin to a child molester, I am re-thinking how I will move forward when I know someone is a vegan. Which for me, personally, is not difficult. I don't consider myself a "carnivore". I try to eat a Mediterranean diet, and I love my veggies. So it would never feel like a sacrifice to eat a vegetarian meal. (like you, ToledoMike!) My issue is, and always will be, the intrusive comments about what people eat. Here is where I don't consider myself a hypocrite. If I know a colleague is MAGA, I don't discuss politics with them. I recently learned a colleague is not vaccinating her children. I'm disgusted but will keep this to myself. I have to work with this young woman, and I sure know how emotional new mothers are. No thank you on that discussion. So I guess it all falls into line. I don't intrude on other politics or religion or food choices. It isn't easy when the same courtesy is not extended to me in the workplace. I can't wait until I'm finally retired and can be more like Macphysto, choosing who to be around in the faculty lunchroom!

Trust me, scary, you will love retirement, not only with the free time it will bring, but more greatly the freedom to say exactly what you think, for the most part with most people. If you're financially secure and comfortable, all you need to enjoy it is your health, a decent social circle, and several interests, which for people like us is easy, as we are already fairly independent and intellectually curious, so we naturally find ways to fill our time after retiring, even if we have to do it mostly without companionship. That last thing is really the only thing I'm lacking in my life, so it follows that my interest in the dating game is more serious than most women my age, who are already mostly fulfilled emotionally and socially with their adult kids and grandkids, neither of which I have..

If being vegan is a line in the sand for being partnered, I can and will respect that in the dating game, tho I've rarely run across it in my local dating pool, living in Iowa which is a farming state with almost everybody being a carnivore and lots of meatpacking plants and livestock operations, etc.. But if it isn't a line in the sand for a woman, I'm fine with compromising and each of us providing and eating whatever we want. Obviously that wouldn't work with a female version of mac, lol... But I do have my own lines in the sand on politics and religion, regarding dating, as I won't waste my time or a woman's, with dating a Libertarian, conservative, or Trumper. Same with someone whose religion and beliefs are fundamentalist, conservative, or very strongly religious, as it just wouldn't work.. And I do feel your pain about co-workers, as my last job before retirement, was chock full of co workers that were conservative Christians and Repubs... They also were very bigoted towards queer folk and not very smart or educated. It was a lot of tongue biting on my part..